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  1. Ali Seden
  2. Sierra/ Millennium/ Encore
  3. Monday, October 08 2018, 10:31 AM
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We migrated to Innovative in 2002.

Until about a month ago, we did not delete ORDER records.
This September we deleted some 40,000 status 1 (ON HOLD), and status z (CANCELLED) order records.

We still have over 900,000 order records in Sierra, 867,000 of which are FULLY PAID (status a).
500,000 of these fully paid order records have not been touched for at least 7 years.
Is there any point in keeping them?
What do you do?

Do you purge order records?
What is your cutoff date for purging FULLY PAID order records?
What do you keep? What do you purge? Why?

Do you archive order records before batch deleting?
Have you had occasion to refer to archived order records? Have you encountered difficulties doing searches on them?

Have you considered pulling data to a SQL searchable database that key staff can access before purging?
If yes, will you be willing to share your experiences?

We include order records in Daily Record LINK Maintenance? Having so many “dead” order records in our system creates serious problems with inaccurate information in BIB LOCATIONS, and Sierra’s / Encore's Locations facet, inaccuracies which end up choking public service.
What do you do? Do you exclude order records from Daily Link maintenance? Have you experienced disadvantages as a result of exclusion?
[Do you let patrons see titles on order? Do you let them place holds on ordered (but not yet received) material. Does exclusion from link maintenance impact requests on ordered titles?]

We’ll very much appreciate hearing about your experiences, suggestions.

Ali Seden

ILS Manager
Enterprise Applications / IT
Brooklyn Public Library
10 Grand Army Plaza
Brooklyn, NY 11238

Tele: 1-718-230-2445

aseden@bklynlibrary.org
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Karen Perone Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
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Joshua,
You asked:
Does anyone know if/how deleting fully-paid order records affects the related invoices?

And at what point should the invoice records be deleted? and can they be?


You don't just delete order records that have invoices attached. Actually, you can't. You delete the order records by going through a Purge process. See https://csdirect.iii.com/sierrahelp/Default.php#sgil/sgil_data_exchange_purge_orders.html?Highlight=purge for details. This breaks the connection between the order record and the payment information. I can't say for sure about the invoices, but I think that information gets transferred to the Payment History File or Vendor Records once you post. Perhaps someone who has more experience with invoice records can chime in? It's never been a concern for us since the payment authority is our business office and they keep that on a separate system from us.

flutebrarian@gmail.com
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Ali Seden Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
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Thank you, Joshua. We’ll be very appreciative if you can share with the forum any response you may get in person.

Good weekend.



Ali Seden



Brooklyn Public Library

1-718-230-2445

aseden@bklynlibrary.org





From: Innovative Users Group [mailto:discussions@innovativeusers.org]


Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 3:20 PM

To: Seden, Ali

Subject: [IUG] [#12590]: Order Records, Archiving, Purging, SQL, Link Maintenance, Bib Locations, Location Facet, Customer Service (Reply)















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Joshua Rees replied to the discussion
Order Records, Archiving, Purging, SQL, Link Maintenance, Bib Locations, Location Facet, Customer Service


















Hello,

This is a notification to let you know that Joshua Rees has replied to the discussion on the site. You may find the snippet of the reply below:














Thank you for this important query, which I have been debating with about myself for years now.



We have been on Millennium/Sierra since 2005 - order records since 2006, and I have only deleted cancelled order records thus far.



Part of my hold-up is about the invoice records.



Does anyone know if/how deleting fully-paid order records affects the related invoices?



And at what point should the invoice records be deleted? and can they be?



Thank you



rees@plsinfo.org











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Joshua Rees Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
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Thank you for this important query, which I have been debating with about myself for years now.

We have been on Millennium/Sierra since 2005 - order records since 2006, and I have only deleted cancelled order records thus far.

Part of my hold-up is about the invoice records.

Does anyone know if/how deleting fully-paid order records affects the related invoices?

And at what point should the invoice records be deleted? and can they be?

Thank you

rees@plsinfo.org
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Jeremy Goldstein Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
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I've worked with acquisitions at a number of Sierra sites dating back to 2006 and have never had cause to refer back to a completed order record that was more than a year old. In Minuteman we have been purging 2 years old records since 2014 and have never had a member library encounter a time when they needed to go back to that data.

Keep in mind that while the order records are removed, invoices remain, as does typically the order history available from each vendor.

jgoldstein@minlib.net
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Ali Seden Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
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Thank you, Jeremy, and again, Karen, for the very valuable information you shared with us.



If there is any library system out there NOT purging “dead” order records, storing them in Sierra, and keeping them off of daily link maintenance, we’d very much like to
hear the logic underlying their decisions.



Is there a single library system which refrained from batch deleting order records (some 800,000 of them) for 16 years, like we have? Why? What would lead you to consider
deleting what you have?



We’re told:



·
We need to be able to search all data on all fields of all fully-paid, purge-candidate, order records, on demand, at all times.

·
Before you purge order records, we need you to create a proprietary SQL searchable database as powerful as Sierra, and export all data there.

·
Otherwise, we do not want you to delete order records.

·
If there are side effects, do not run daily link maintenance on order records.



Is this realistic? If anyone has done this, we’d like to hear from them. Was it worth the effort?


How frequently do any of you have to refer to, say, five to sixteen year old fully-paid order record data on which you’ve been regularly sharing information with your financial
office?



No feedback is insignificant. No repetition is too much. Many thanks.



Ali M. Seden



ILS Manager

Enterprise Applications / IT

Brooklyn Public Library

10 Grand Army Plaza

Brooklyn, NY 11238



Tele: 1-718-230-2445

















From: Innovative Users Group [mailto:discussions@innovativeusers.org]


Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2018 8:40 AM

To: Seden, Ali

Subject: [IUG] [#12590]: Order Records, Archiving, Purging, SQL, Link Maintenance, Bib Locations, Location Facet, Customer Service (Reply)















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Jeremy Goldstein replied to the discussion
Order Records, Archiving, Purging, SQL, Link Maintenance, Bib Locations, Location Facet, Customer Service


















Hello,

This is a notification to let you know that Jeremy Goldstein has replied to the discussion on the site. You may find the snippet of the reply below:














For the past few years we have run an annual order record purge each August of all orders that are either cancelled and created more than 2 full fiscal years back or are paid with a paid date older than 2 full fiscal years. Before that
point we also do some smaller clean up reports to catch partial paid, on hold, really old on order records, etc... that may otherwise fall through the cracks. Prior to deleting the records I do export the data for those records to a spreadsheet (via SQL just
because I find it faster than create lists, but either works) for the records at each library.




This is done for the reasons Karen stated, and our 2 year cut off is based on polling our members for how far back they ever wind up referring to old records, though even those instances are rare. We even have our largest member library purge their own records
on an annual basis of their own volition, simply out of their own preference to keep their data a bit more manageable.



jgoldstein@minlib.net











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aseden@bklynlibrary.org
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Karen Perone Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
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On 10/8/2018 5:35 PM, Seden, Ali wrote:



Also,
can you please explain what you mean by “feeding” the order
information into the library’s financial system?


Wondering
if there is anything you do that we don’t, and should.


We routinely send PO and invoice information to our finance
department. They are the fiscal authority for the library and have
the official balance of all accounts. There are vouchers that can be
printed from the system, but we just pass along totals for opening
POs and invoices for paying the bills. The Sierra system then is
used for getting things listed in the WebPAC for holds to be placed
while on order and for verifying that all titles have been received
when unpacking boxes.

--Karen Perone, Rodman Public Library




flutebrarian@gmail.com
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Jeremy Goldstein Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
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For the past few years we have run an annual order record purge each August of all orders that are either cancelled and created more than 2 full fiscal years back or are paid with a paid date older than 2 full fiscal years. Before that point we also do some smaller clean up reports to catch partial paid, on hold, really old on order records, etc... that may otherwise fall through the cracks. Prior to deleting the records I do export the data for those records to a spreadsheet (via SQL just because I find it faster than create lists, but either works) for the records at each library.

This is done for the reasons Karen stated, and our 2 year cut off is based on polling our members for how far back they ever wind up referring to old records, though even those instances are rare. We even have our largest member library purge their own records on an annual basis of their own volition, simply out of their own preference to keep their data a bit more manageable.

jgoldstein@minlib.net
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Ali Seden Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
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Thank you, Karen, for taking the time to answer my questions. Your response makes perfect sense to me.



A few of us have been pushing for archiving and purging order records for about six years now.

Not all stakeholders are convinced. Hence, my posting to the forum.



If users of this forum can shower us with their feedback, regardless of their perspectives on the topic, we’ll be absolutely grateful.

The more the better.



Our financial office informed us they do not need to have access to order records more than one year past full payment date.



Also, can you please explain what you mean by “feeding” the order information into the library’s financial system?


Wondering if there is anything you do that we don’t, and should.



Stay well.



Ali Seden

ILS Manager

Enterprise Applications / IT

Brooklyn Public Library

10 Grand Army Plaza

Brooklyn, NY 11238



Tele: 1-718-230-2445





From: Innovative Users Group [mailto:discussions@innovativeusers.org]


Sent: Monday, October 08, 2018 2:05 PM

To: Seden, Ali

Subject: [IUG] [#12590]: Order Records, Archiving, Purging, SQL, Link Maintenance, Bib Locations, Location Facet, Customer Service (Reply)















New Reply Added




Karen Perone replied to the discussion
Order Records, Archiving, Purging, SQL, Link Maintenance, Bib Locations, Location Facet, Customer Service


















Hello,

This is a notification to let you know that Karen Perone has replied to the discussion on the site. You may find the snippet of the reply below:














It sounds like you are well overdue for a mass purging of your old order records. You need to get rid of old records for a number of reasons. Most notable are for weeding projects and deletion of old location codes, not to mention inaccurate
holdings information in the public OPAC.



When you delete the last remaining item for a title from your catalog, you will want to delete the bib record as well. If you still have an order record hanging around, you will have to suppress the bib record because you can't delete the bib if something is
still attached to it and you don't want the record to display to the public because they will place holds on it and become upset when their hold is never fulfilled.



If you can't delete the bib record and you want to get rid of a location code, you can't without totally throwing off the location code table and the many other tables that rely on the location codes.



That said, I routinely delete order records as we delete items from the collection. I will also do a mass order record purge about once a year of any fully paid and cataloged records in our system. Once an item is cataloged, the order record will no longer
appear to the public although it is still accessible to staff. I follow the procedures outlined in the manual under the topic of Archiving Purged Order Records or Deleting Order Records. In Data Exchange, I use the Put to PC instead of the "output" option
mentioned in the Archiving steps. I save the order records to a file on my PC in case we ever have to refer back to them for data, but in the 24 years that I have been doing this, we have NEVER had to go back and look at the data.



I would recommend keeping how ever many years of data that your financial office requires. In our case, the order information is fed into the library's financial system so we don't usually keep more than a couple years on Sierra.



A clean system is a happy system

--Karen Perone, Rodman Public Library



flutebrarian@gmail.com











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Karen Perone Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
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It sounds like you are well overdue for a mass purging of your old order records. You need to get rid of old records for a number of reasons. Most notable are for weeding projects and deletion of old location codes, not to mention inaccurate holdings information in the public OPAC.

When you delete the last remaining item for a title from your catalog, you will want to delete the bib record as well. If you still have an order record hanging around, you will have to suppress the bib record because you can't delete the bib if something is still attached to it and you don't want the record to display to the public because they will place holds on it and become upset when their hold is never fulfilled.

If you can't delete the bib record and you want to get rid of a location code, you can't without totally throwing off the location code table and the many other tables that rely on the location codes.

That said, I routinely delete order records as we delete items from the collection. I will also do a mass order record purge about once a year of any fully paid and cataloged records in our system. Once an item is cataloged, the order record will no longer appear to the public although it is still accessible to staff. I follow the procedures outlined in the manual under the topic of Archiving Purged Order Records or Deleting Order Records. In Data Exchange, I use the Put to PC instead of the "output" option mentioned in the Archiving steps. I save the order records to a file on my PC in case we ever have to refer back to them for data, but in the 24 years that I have been doing this, we have NEVER had to go back and look at the data.

I would recommend keeping how ever many years of data that your financial office requires. In our case, the order information is fed into the library's financial system so we don't usually keep more than a couple years on Sierra.

A clean system is a happy system :)
--Karen Perone, Rodman Public Library

flutebrarian@gmail.com
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